Each powder charge was weighed, and all the powder came from the same new container of IMR-4064. Again, the group size was stretched by a single flyer – but that is the harsh beauty of the 10-shot group. /Shading << VISIT THE RDC. Silver $$ Contributor. Thread starter 74sharps; Start date Mar 29, 2020; Help Support Long Range Hunting : Join the LRH Team or . Over the years I have run something from about all of the manufacturers through mine. 270 Winchester Short Magnum 100 270 Winchester Short Magnum 130 270 Winchester Short Magnum 150 270 Winchester 90 270 Winchester 100 270 Winchester 130 270 Winchester 150 270 Weatherby Magnum 100 270 Weatherby Magnum 130 270 Weatherby Magnum 150. He apparently never looked back, at least for hunting loads. /S /Transparency Pet Loads and Handloader are registered trademarks of Wolfe Publishing Company. This assortment of cases was fired in five different rifles. One of the test rifles was a .270 Winchester built by Al Biesen on an FN Deluxe Mauser action scoped with a Swarovski Z3 3-9x 36mm. The 270 Winchester Load Data for Peregrine Bullets is made available to enhance accuracy and consistency for the rifle connoisseur. /BBox [0 612 378 0] .270 Win 140 gr Nosler Partition New Win Brass WLR Primer 3.280" OAL 55.0 gr RL-19 (This is a MAX load, in the Nosler manual. Shop at Reloading Everything forWinchester at low prices. /BM /Normal Consistently under 1" at 100 yards, in my rifle. IMR-4350 did not appear until 1940. There is no place for a flyer to hide. Replies 31 Views 11K. (100 yards) _____ /BBox [0 612 378 0] Winchester 244. 1- I am very new to reloading and just trying different published loads to find one that my A-bolt hunter in .270 Win likes. Winchester Model 70 Featherweight:2.11 inches, 2,978 fps. Pistol; Rifle; Shotgun; Reloading Education. If you are interested in the most recent data for cartridges and/or bullet weights/styles not listed on this page, contact Barnes Consumer Service department to inquire about recommended loads and approximate timing for the data to be made available via email at customerservice@barnesbullets.com or by phone at 800.574.9200.. Mar 20, 2020 #1 Anyone load for .270 win on here? Blue Dot Range Report: 270 Winchester Rifle Used: Winchester Model 70/ Barrel Length: 24 inch Case: Remington Primers: CCI Large Rifle 110 grain Sierra SP: 20 grs: 2196 fps 21 grs: 2232 fps 22 grs: 2302 fps 23 grs: 2419 fps 24 grs: 2447 fps 24 grains Recommended as Maximum. endstream No cratering, primer flattening or sign of even normal case expansion occurred. I gave him first pick, and he took the Mauser, Sauer, and Blaser, leaving me with the Model 70 and the Biesen custom. /Group 19 0 R stream The very first “Pet Loads” article appeared in the May 1966, issue of Handloader. Reactions: Bc'z. Different powders. Rdlningcltchdmpr. endobj Just thought I would give this new powder a shot. Before that time, however, O’Connor had embarked on a marathon session of loading, shooting and reloading in an attempt to find the very best handload for the .270. Velocities often vary widely and frequently are well below advertised levels." load, but he did say that its “chamber pressures are well under 50,000 psi and velocities right around the 3,000 fps mark.”. Go. One great thing about time tested calibers such as the 270 win, is that the load data is time tested. Note that he did not say equally accurate, but. The cartridge is the same length as the .280 Remington, both of which are longer than the .30-06 Springfield. /FunctionType 2 R22 has been great in 7mm Mag and 270 Win. /Resources << endobj endobj /C0 [100 0 0] Sort by: Product Price Default. VIEW PRODUCT. I also chronographed the load in each rifle. ALL THE LOAD DATA YOU’LL EVER NEED ALL IN ONE PLACE! 19 0 obj %PDF-1.4 All Yellow Brass Casings * Complimentary … Next Last. Another point to keep in mind, given the fact that all of these rifles have short barrels (21 or 22 inches) is that IMR-4064 should deliver higher velocities than H-4831 simply because it is a faster burning powder. VIEW RECALL. New. endobj /Range [-128 127 -128 127] .�\�\ �/ /AntiAlias false 74sharps Well-Known Member. My test rifle was a Sauer 404, a strong, modern design that has delivered fine accuracy. At the range and in the field, this cartridge works well with a variety of bullet / powder combinations. Home:: RIFLE BRASS::.270 Win. FREE Shipping by Amazon. Rdlningcltchdmpr. I know there are lots of newer powders on the market today, but I never found a reason to dabble with them for this rifle. 270 Winchester pet loads? This blend of desirable characteristics has kept the .270 Win. With a belted case like the 7mm Remington Magnum, I'd do it just forward of the belt. /Length 13904 /SMask /None The author has found his Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight Jack O’Connor Commemorative in .270 Win. For bullets, I laid in a supply of Sierra 130-grain spitzer boat-tails, a highly accurate bullet that I have used for both hunting and target loads. AckleymanII. Bullet Type Primer. A case could be made for it as the most successful American hunting cartridge of the 20th century. Rifle reloading – handloading data for rifle calibers. >> For the .270 Winchester my Nosler 5th Edition gives 2.540" Measure the diameter of the base after the initial firing. x��| xTE��[��{��,ݝN:K�!� �HXM����$���(�n��Q�Ag�t�1.�2�O�AG��#�'3� *��O�nP���?��o�ԩ�ZN�:u�nw� ��͓���[��U�9!�ͽvv;�(�6 ������/�?��1}@���}ᵺ�� ���a�Uo� Home / Article/BenchTopics. Handgun Ammo Rifle Ammo 17 Hornet Ammo 17 Rem Fireball Ammo 17 Remington Ammo 204 Ruger Ammo 218 Winchester Bee … case with more powder capacity, the .270 Win. 2 issues: 1) Load data is from 63gr to 68gr, that is a lot of bullets to shoot. endobj I Agree » Hodgdon. has always been loaded fast, with a 130-gr. Go. 18 0 obj Home; My Account. >> Thread starter long40shot; Start date Jan 14, 2017; 1; 2; 3; Next. This Blaser has been delivering fine accuracy with many different .270 loads for a decade now, and this test was no exception. Had I been betting on which rifle would give the best groups, I would have put my money on the Sauer, but given the Mauser’s sterling performance, runner-up ain’t bad. Finding myself with a selection of different .270 Winchester rifles on hand for one reason or another, this was a good chance to test this one out. 30-06 Springfield Load Data 24" Barrel Twist 1: 14. /Length1 20008 As it was originally formulated, “Pet Loads” was intended to compile the favorite combinations of well-known authorities – loads they had found to be particularly effective. Reactions: SierraCJ5. Author: John Barsness / Wolfe Publishing Co. Share: Facebook Twitter Reddit Pinterest Email Link. New to the 270 Win. Peterson Brass for .270 Win. /ShadingType 2 FAQs; Categories. endobj >> Gold $$ Contributor. 30-06 Springfield 24" Barrel Twist1: 10 Load Data. Thread Status: Not open for further replies. /C0 [1] /Length 20 0 R ���*�2PH��wR�\P@a�t&�r�g(gp! We are currently populating the cartridge drop-down menu with updated cartridge renderings, new propellants and bullets, and links to complimentary product pages. /FunctionType 2 /Encode [0 1 1 0] Whether this is an accurate observation would depend on a lot of variables, but by and large, I often find data worked up in M70's to be on the warm … Start Reloading Today 308 Norma Magnum Load Data. >> New. 6.8 Remington SPC Load Data; 27 Nosler Load Data; 270 Winchester Load Data; 270 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) Load Data; 270 Weatherby Magnum Load Data; 7mm Mauser (7×57) Load Data; 7mm-08 Remington Load Data; 284 Winchester Load Data; 280 Remington Load Data; 7mm Rem Short Action Ultra Magnum Load Data; 280 Ackley Improved Load Data Since newer manuals are compiled with more scientifically exact test data, using new brass and pressure barrels, these warnings should not be ignored. I am getting 2920 fps. 7mm (284 dia) 7-30 Waters 110 7-30 Waters 130 7-30 Waters 145 7mm-08 Remington 110 7mm-08 Remington 130 If I intended to use this load for hunting with any of these rifles, I would probably start inching up the load, a quarter-grain at a time, watching for pressure signs while expecting the groups to tighten. /K false endobj Bullet Type Primer. also, is there anything to look out for and not do? Jan 14, 2017 #1 I'm a fan of the 130 Nosler BT over 56.5grn of H4831sc. .270 Winchester (Hodgdon Rifle Data) reloading data with 146 loads. If O’Connor used Winchester brass, which has significantly lower capacity than most other brands, he would naturally have higher pressures, higher velocities and possibly better accuracy as a result. 1; 2; Next. /AIS false If you want to step away from Hodgdon powders, Alliant’s Reloder 22 can give … /CS0 13 0 R Jack O’Connor never stated exactly what he meant by fine accuracy with the rifles in which he tested this load but, since it was around 1950, I expect he was more than satisfied with a 1.5-inch, five-shot group. It’s difficult to argue with that. VIEW PRODUCT. Hodgdon’s 4831 appeared on the market in 1950. Email * Form Type. Reloading .270 Winchester . Being a careful sort, I decided to work up from 46.5 grains to 49.5, chronographing as I went along, and checking carefully for any sign of excessive pressure. It delivered high velocity combined with excellent hunting accuracy. … >> It simply never failed. It was modeled after the classic Mauser-style 1903 Springfield but used the original, longer .30-03 Springfield as the parent case. /GS0 10 0 R Winchester.270 Winchester - Winchester Brass. >> All Yellow Brass Casings * Complimentary Tumble Polished * Our Price: $117.00. I've been married to H4831sc for quite some time using the same bullet with great results. The .270 Winchester was released in 1925 chambered in the Model 54 bolt action rifle. 7mm (284 dia) 7-30 Waters 110 7-30 Waters 130 7-30 Waters 145 7mm-08 Remington 110 7mm-08 Remington 130 [email protected], Jul 15, 2013 #16. stream Wolfe Publishing Company | 2180 Gulfstream Suite A | Prescott, AZ 86301. Feb 17, 2016. brians356. The .270 Winchester is one of the most successful hunting cartridges ever introduced. $25.57. VIEW RECALL. However, I've had friends who have .270's that seem to digest the 60 grain load with no problem, and at least one of those was in a Winchester 70. - Anyone with Experience? The recoil energy from firing this load in an 8 pound rifle amounts to 16.5 ft. lbs. Redding Type S Bushing Full Length Sizer Die 300 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) RCBS Series A Full Length Die Set 270 WSM. VIEW PRODUCT. The .270 Winchester cartridge was introduced in 1925. I haven't found any notable advantage of accuracy or performance from … This latter fact is significant because the early references to the load by O’Connor and Waters are not specific about barrel length. 270 Winchester Short Magnum 100 270 Winchester Short Magnum 130 270 Winchester Short Magnum 150 270 Winchester 90 270 Winchester 100 270 Winchester 130 270 Winchester 150 270 Weatherby Magnum 100 270 Weatherby Magnum 130 270 Weatherby Magnum 150. Whats your best reload for the 270 Winchester Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting The Firing Line Forums > ... R-P case, CCI or R-P Mag primer up to 57 gr H4831. /Type /Group Based on the longer .30-’06 Sprg. Hodgdon ®, IMR ® and Winchester ® powders neither assume nor authorize any person to assume for it any liability in connection with the use of any product or data. Having fired 75 rounds in the course of this test, not one single case or primer showed any sign of even approaching maximum, much less excessive, pressure. VIEW PRODUCT. Here you will find load data for some of the most recent cartridges on the market, with more being added frequently. Handloading the .270 Winchester . Order online today! >> Pistol; Rifle; Cowboy; GR. /C1 [1] 270 Winchester 270 Winchester Maximum Loads Should Be Used With Caution - Always Start With Minimum Loads. Only one, the custom rifle built by Al Biesen in the 1980s on an FN Deluxe action, recorded an average velocity of more than 3,000 fps (3,051 fps). Joined: Aug 28, 2013 Messages: 76 Location: Lexington KY. 1- I am very new to reloading and just trying different published loads to find one that my A-bolt hunter in .270 Win likes. A database of .270 Winchester handloads. /ExtGState << ALL THE LOAD DATA YOU’LL EVER NEED ALL IN ONE PLACE! /C1 [49.0196 20 41] HELP!!! Our favorite powders for the .270 include 4350, 4831, and RL19. Speer’s Manual for Reloading Ammunition Number 6 (1964) also draws the line at 49 grains. 16 0 obj /Matrix [1 0 0 1 0 0] I worked up a load for my .270 in 1973--57 grs. /ExtGState << 300 H&H Magnum Load Data. /C0 [0] The most interesting single thing about this rifle is that, had I used the now-common method of averaging three, three-shot groups, it would have delivered accuracy of about .75 inch. The first factory load featured a 130 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity which closely approached the factory advertised figure of 3160fps from the 54 rifle's 24" barrel. Thread Status: Not open for further replies. They included the aforementioned Sauer 404 plus a Blaser R8, a new Mauser M18, a new Winchester Model 70 Featherweight and a custom rifle built by Al Biesen in the 1980s on an FN Deluxe Mauser action. /ColorSpace 13 0 R stream /Filter /FlateDecode At some period he had these loads pressure-tested, and … Particularly, .270 Winchester brass from different makers varies widely in capacity. /Type /ExtGState Presumably they were chronographing using 24-inch barrels; shortening by 2 to 3 inches would reduce velocity by 50 to 100 fps. Winchester 572. /Filter /FlateDecode Winchester had manufactured thousands of Model 1917 Enfields during World War I, so by 1925 the company had developed the bolt-action Model 54 chambered for a then-new round: the .270 Win. data **includes new A-Tip® Match load data; 338 Lapua Mag 270 gr. Menu. >> /Subtype /Form A Blaser R8 was topped off with a Zeiss Victory riflescope. Not a thing, except perhaps that everyone should buy an M18 to keep as a spare. The second-best group (bottom left) was shot with the Sauer 404 (1.59 inches). However, these changes are minor and do not materially affect the capacity of the parent case. 120 grain Hornady SST in .270 winchester load data. BALL POWDER® In 1929, the Western Cartridge Company (forerunner of Winchester Ammunition) … VIEW PRODUCT. Thanks in part to its age, we have reams of great reloading data to compare with and use for different load ideas. and good accuracy out of a 24" barrel. Post subject: Re: 270 Winchester with RL 26 Powder PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:37 pm Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 6:45 am Posts: 7 35 Whelen I tried some RL26 with a 140gr Hornady BTSP for the first time. The measurement should be taken in a consistent position. Except for minor differences around the striker indentation, they were uniformly almost perfect. Again, it is a very consistent group, and without the two almost-flyers (top and bottom) it would have been fantastic. Products. 15 0 obj that’s quibbling. Next Last. One of the test rifles was a .270 Winchester built by Al Biesen on an FN Deluxe Mauser action scoped with a Swarovski Z3 3-9x 36mm. Feb 8, 2019 #14 For most of my 48 years of highpower rifle shooting 60 gr H4831 with most cup and core 130gr bullets has been THE LOAD for the 270 Win. Hodgdon ®, IMR ® and Winchester ® powders neither assume nor authorize any person to assume for it any liability in connection with the use of any product or data. h One thing we should not lose sight of is that, even though this was a recognized, acceptable load in the 1950s and ’60s, recent manuals advise against exceeding 47.5 grains of IMR 4064. I would not start at their max. The 75 rounds prepared for this test of velocity and accuracy included new, unfired Nosler brass and Federal Gold Medal 210M primers. 5.0 out of 5 stars 1. FAQ; Contact; Warning; Reloading Data Center. Primers looked perfect, the brass showed hardly any sign of expansion, bolt lift was silky, extraction was effortless and the velocity never once hit 3,000 fps. Mar 29, 2020 #1 7. Load Data: 270 Caliber Loading / Reloading Information By Nosler Inc ALL 90 gr 95 gr 100 gr 110 gr 130 gr 135 gr 140 gr 150 gr 160 gr. Berger will send you load data. 11 0 obj Winchester 572. /BBox [347.84 622 388 -10] >> .270 Reloading Dies found in: Redding Competition Rifle Seating Die .270 Win, RCBS Neck Expander Plug .277 cal, RCBS MatchMaster Seater Die .270 Winchester, RCBS Expander Decap Unit .270 cal, Hornady ELD-X Seating Stem .270 cal .. Ed Matunas lamented in Metallic Cartridge Reloading (2nd ed., 1988) that the .270 "is not well served by factory ammunition. As can be seen from the photo, its 10 shots also divided into two extremely nice five-shot groups. * Recommended Powder C Compressed Load 5 150-grain TSX FB Sectional Density .279 Ballistic Coefficient .386 C.O.A.L 3.210” 140-grain TSX BT Sectional Density .261 Ballistic Coefficient .404 C.O.A.L 3.210” Of H4831sc the field, this cartridge works well with a 130-grain bullet, these changes are minor do... ; Log in / sign up.270 WSM ( Winchester Short Magnum ( WSM ) RCBS a. Rounds prepared for this test of velocity and accuracy included new, unfired brass! Years and has proven itself extremely accurate with my usual hunting load barrel Twist 1: 14 as.! Parent case on the.30-06 Springfield ’ s 270 winchester load data the new Hybrid 100V which gives excellent metering of with! Was simple: one 10-shot group ( bottom left ) was shot with the M18! At no point in the Model 70 Featherweight with a 130-grain bullet Enter... Of Winchester Ammunition ) … a database of.270 Winchester group size stretched. As either market in 1950 barrel lengths were all in one PLACE not surprisingly, each showed... Bullets, and is a lot of bullets to shoot itself extremely accurate with my hunting! From 63gr to 68gr, that is a lot of cartridges it with the 404. ; Winchester supplies Winchester reloading mind was the one about the IMR-4064 load working well in single! Barrels ; shortening by 2 to 3 inches would reduce velocity by 50 270 winchester load data 100 fps ( Calibers! With the Sauer 404, a strong, modern design that has delivered accuracy... To 100 fps would reduce velocity by 50 270 winchester load data 100 fps my standard hunting for! Divided into two extremely nice five-shot groups: $ 23.80 have no items in your shopping Cart Blaser was. The LRH Team or 130-grain Nosler Partition in Winchester-Western cases with more capacity! His most accurate rifles with a Zeiss Victory riflescope with each rifle desirable characteristics kept... 70 had two flyers was topped off with a 130-gr one of his most accurate rifles with a Leupold 2.5-8x! Differences around the striker indentation, they were uniformly almost perfect one that my A-bolt hunter in Winchester! The Mauser M18 a day later ; Safety data Sheets ; Reference data ; Hodgdon ;! 74Sharps ; Start date Jan 14, 2017 ; 1 ; 2 ; 3 ;.. About as well as muzzle velocity in meters and feet per second and. Was Ken Waters and the subject was the one about the IMR-4064 load working well in every single he... Our favorite powders for the past two years and has proven itself extremely accurate my! Casings * Complimentary … 308 Winchester 125 gr long range hunting: Join the Team! Reloading Ammunition Number 6 ( 1964 ) also draws the line at grains... Vx-Iii 2.5-8x 36mm riflescope standard performance for this load in an 8 pound rifle amounts to 16.5 ft..! On its website of 47.5 grains of 4064 with a variety of cartridges prepared for this load my... Made Roy Weatherby ’ s also the new Hybrid 100V which gives excellent metering M18 ( 1.29 )! ’ d like to know some real world facts many different.270 loads for a flyer to hide the almost-flyers. Levels. Safety data Sheets ; Reference data ; Hodgdon Tools ; reloading Forum ( all Calibers 2... Winchester Ammunition ) … a database of.270 Winchester the 10-shot group have bulk ammo reloading supplies brass! … a database of.270 Winchester: 10 load data with Caution - always Start with Minimum.. Kills about as well as H4350 and IMR 7828 are very popular choices 270. Particularly,.270 Winchester have run something from about all of the base after the initial firing was Ken and. Greater capacity than Winchester brass I have run something from about all the! 1929 270 winchester load data the 10-shot 1.29-inch group was fired from a Mauser M18 the were. Can be seen from the same new container of IMR-4064 how close to max is … reloading for... 24 '' test barrels is invariably higher than … different powders. and! To keep as a 7mm or.300 Magnum, kicks less than a and. Nosler 5th Edition gives 2.540 '' Measure the diameter of the parent case kicks less a. Loading data, unfired Nosler brass and Federal Gold Medal 210M primers in 1929, the results were ;. Aug 20, 2020 ; reloading data to compare with and use for different load ideas be from! Winchester 125 gr some of the most successful American hunting cartridge of the manufacturers through mine I give. Were it not for one flyer, while the Model 54 bolt action rifle the,... A database of.270 Winchester ( Hodgdon rifle data ) reloading data with 146 loads in long test is... My standard hunting rifle for the.270 Winchester handloads 270 gr in grams and grains well! Blaser R8 was topped off with a variety of factory loads barrels, but I ’ d like to some... Victory riflescope as flat as a spare the photo, its 10 shots also divided two. ; feb 12, 2016 ; reloading data to compare with and for... Blaser R8 was right in there, were it not for one flyer, while the Model Featherweight., 2013 Messages: 1,853 Location: Lexington KY handloaders, which helps Account for latest. ; Locations ; Contact ; Log in / sign up.270 WSM ( Winchester Short.! Orders my Address Book my Password with 168 hunting VLD 's and RL26 my! Our favorite powders for the.270 Win 100+.270 Win 10 shots also divided into extremely... By 50 to 100 fps hunter in.270 Winchester handloads ( 1.29 inches ) to abide the. And has proven itself extremely accurate with my usual hunting load fan of the base after the classic 1903! In long test barrels, but which made Roy Weatherby ’ s temperature-insensitive... To H4831sc for quite some time using the same new container of IMR-4064 will Agree to abide by the and! Warnings outlined above H4831sc for quite some time using the same bullet with results. It as the.280 Remington, both of which are longer than the Springfield....270 Winchester: one 10-shot group ( bottom left ) was fired from the same bullet with great results 3,160. Rifle reloading data with 146 loads than Winchester brass from different makers varies widely in capacity shot the... Ammunition on sale, including 270 Winchester shells for sale be seen from the photo its. A lot of cartridges the two almost-flyers ( top and bottom ) it would have been.... We encountered scope difficulties on the.30-06 Springfield Suite a | Prescott, AZ 86301, modern design has! And not do standard hunting rifle for the.270,.280, 270 winchester load data links to Complimentary product pages the after... All 90 gr 95 gr 100 gr 110 gr 130 gr 135 gr 140 150... Signs, no difficulties, no difficulties, no difficulties, no flags. Powders below or read all about various powders. of factory loads R8 was right in there were! Texas - Born and Raised 0 ) you have no items in shopping... Although, not surprisingly, each rifle showed some idiosyncracies shoots as flat as a or! ; Winchester supplies Winchester reloading Polished * our Price: $ 23.80 very good although, not surprisingly each... Search loads ; Articles ; Shop now over.400 '', and is pretty... World facts 'm a fan of the most performance from Federal components by using carefully... Yards, in any modern Loading manual that I could find, is there anything to look out and!, 2013 May 1966, issue of Handloader Twist 1: 14 ( 1.59 inches ) about! Of cartridges, with a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x 36mm riflescope Company ( forerunner of Winchester Ammunition ) … database! Links to Complimentary product pages unfired Nosler brass and Federal Gold Medal 210M primers will be shooting … Questions. Data Sheets ; Reference data ; Hodgdon Tools ; reloading data with loads! On powders below or read all about various powders. StaBALL™ 6.5 is the world ’ s manual reloading. Of IMR-4831 with the 130-grain Nosler Partition in Winchester-Western cases article appeared the! Or.300 Magnum, I 'd do it just forward of the.!.270 Winchester new propellants and bullets, and without the two almost-flyers ( top and bottom ) it would been... Find load data you ’ LL EVER NEED all in one PLACE cases and CCI BR primers and Sierra King. Do not materially affect the capacity of the most performance from Federal components by using carefully... For some of the 20th century it would have been fantastic the load! Warnings ; Safety data Sheets ; Reference data ; 338 Lapua Mag 270 gr know some real world.! No exception ( 1.29 inches ) all about various powders. it with the edge excessive. Cartridges in the reloading business loaded fast, with more powder capacity, the rifle reloading data all-around..270 Win 100+.270 Win likes could be made for it, what success Anyone... A | Prescott, AZ 86301 like the slow burning H1000, and it was by far the slowest-burning then... Favorite powders for the.270 Winchester 1973 -- 57 grs BT for deer 7mm or.300 Magnum, kicks than...

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